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Ok I know no one ever ever visits this forum anymore, but I was wondering if anyone had any info on the Psijic Endeavor. I have found a little info in books (Old Ways by Celarus, Mysticism by Tetronius Lor, the Origin of the Mages Guild, etc) about Psijics themselves, and a small amount about the Psijic Endeavor on the UESP (thank god for Dave Humphrey!):
In Morrowind, for example, he (Lorkhan or Shezzar (sp?)) is a being related to the Psijiic Endeavor, a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created them.
Anyhow I would assume the two are related (Psijics and the Psijic Endeavor, that is) but I dont know how. Also, I know that the Psijics are based on an island off of Summerset Isle [edit: Artaeum], but if the Psijic Endeavor is something related to Morrowind, is it something that is influential there? I guess what I'm really asking is will any reference to it be in the upcoming game and, whether it is or isn't, does anyone have any more revealing information on it? It sounds pretty damn cool, and I'm sure we all remember how much "becoming a god" was talkied about with reference to Daggerfall. It would be nice to see this fantasy come true  (or whatever variant of the idea it is). Anyhow I know no one visits here anymore, but I was afraid that if I put this in the Morrowind forum it would get run over by that silly guild they have going on there Thanks in advance.Brendan [This message has been edited by Raptormeat (edited 10-26-2000).]
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Novice Raptormeat,
this question is exactly the sort that this forum was created for. However, I strongly doubt you'll get it answered anytime soon... I personally know as much as you do.
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Yeah, I know. Oh well. I just thought I'd ask. I always thought this forum could be SOO interesting. Whatever, hopefully someone will see it at some point... thanks for the reply Qwerty. Given how hard the developers are working on the game, you are the lore-seekers best bet anyway! Brendan
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It sounds like the Psijics had the most power and influence in the First Era, and then went away for a while in the Second Era (the island of Artaeum literally disappeared). Even at the height of their power, they were primarily counselors to kings and philosophical advisors.
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Okay, now I'm all curious and such. The Psijics showed up after the dwarves disappeared, right? And the Psijics hang out near the homeland of the High Elves... so, are the Psijics High Elves, a mix of races, or what? Sorry for being so clueless, but I really don't feel like sorting through the books to find this stuff out.------------------
Piter Svoboda
MW Code: ES++ FQ+ CP ED+++ BT MP-- B-- BL++ D S-- R+ F 3P WS? G+ CS C- N- SF++ V- KA+++ SK++ L+ P- JP--- It was like that when I got here. No, seriously.
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>> Okay, now I'm all curious and such. The Psijics showed up after the dwarves disappeared, right?According to the book "Fragment: On Artaeum," "The earliest written record of Psijics is from the twentieth year of the first era." The Psijics then "literally vanished from the shores of Sumurset at the beginning of the second era at about the time of the founding of the Mages Guild of Tamriel." Five hundred years later, the island and the Psijics returned from the mists. The Vvardenfell volcano erupted destroying the dwarven kingdom in Morrowind in year 668 of the First Era, according to Xanathar's site (I'm not sure what book this is in). So, actually the dwarves and the Psijics disappeared pretty close to the same time. But the Psijics came back.
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Wow... this is pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the dwarves and Psijics are going to play a big part in Oblivion, or something, as the dwarves have been a huge mystery since Arena and the Psijics were alluded to in the books. I also hope to know a bit more about the Underking, if there isn't already information about him in the game. I haven't completed Daggerfall, you see...------------------
Piter Svoboda
MW Code: ES++ FQ+ CP ED+++ BT MP-- B-- BL++ D S-- R+ F 3P WS? G+ CS C- N- SF++ V- KA+++ SK++ L+ P- JP--- It was like that when I got here. No, seriously.
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>>I haven't completed Daggerfall, you see...I can't tell you more then. Lets just say that the origin of the Underking is at the heart of Daggerfall. ;->
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(spoiler)Well if the Psijics are about elevating yourself to being a god, the ending of DF in relation to a certain resident of a certain burial area might have something to do with it. ------------------
Murderer, Oath-Breaker, and Procrastinator
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quote:
Originally posted by dahakon:
(spoiler)
Well if the Psijics are about elevating yourself to being a god, the ending of DF in relation to a certain resident of a certain burial area might have something to do with it.
Yeah, thats exactly what i was thinking. The only thing is that Lorkan is associated with the Psijic endeavor in Morrowind, not High Rock and Hammerfell. I'm not sure if that means that the actual process is only in Morrowind, or if hes just associated with it there. It seems to be the same idea though. Hmm also- if we are just working with mortals becoming Gods, isn't that how Sai, the god of luck and, uh Arkay the God of the cycle of Birth and Death became Gods. Now these guys became Gods because other Gods made them Gods, and You Know Who became a god through spells and an artifact. The psijic endeavor sounds like more of a quest or something. A quest... I smell a plugin! Brendan
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The Psijics as an organized group are certainly suggested as being solely on Sumurset Isle. Of course, their off-shoot, the Mages Guild, is all over the Empire.Perhaps the Psijic Endeavor is an off-shoot of the Mages Guild, going back to the original philosophy as it were. [This message has been edited by Sheogorath (edited 12-22-2000).]
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Yes, it would be interesting to know more about it. I've been wondering about the Psijics ever since I first heard about them, Phrases like "surpass the gods" tend to grab one's attention.------------------
There are no stupid questions, just Frequently Asked ones.
MW Code: ES++ FQ++ CP ED++ BT MP-- B BL-- RD R++ F+
3P-- WS G- CS-- C N+ SF V- KA+ SK+ LL+ P- JP-- ñõ§¶ÅM [This message has been edited by ManaUser (edited 12-27-2000).]
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Check out a few books at Xanathar's. Mainly, "Origins of Mages' Guild", and also
"On Artaeum", and "Old Ways". However, all this lore was composed back in Daggerfall days, and can be somewhat obsolete. Since Michael Kirkbride is not with Bethesda anymore, I seriously doubt we'll get any answers anytime soon.
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Anyone desirous of a meeting with a Psijic may find contacts in Potansa and Runcibae as well as many of the kingdoms of Sumurset.
If you would be so kind... Where is Potansa and Runcibae? ------------------
town_kryer
Dauntless Larcener
Thieves Guild
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quote:
Originally posted by town_kryer:
If you would be so kind... Where is Potansa and Runcibae?
????? Not in Daggerfall(the game). ------------------
Imperator
Knight of the Forum.
Don't Tread On Me.
FAQ YOU
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quote:
Originally posted by town_kryer:
If you would be so kind... Where is Potansa and Runcibae?
Yeah not in the game Daggerfall. At least they aren't provinces, which is kinda what the book makes them sound like. I remember reading that and then going on a search for these places to see if they exist. I guerss they don't. Is it just me or do they kind of sound like they would be in Hammerfell? Brendan
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I guess Potansa and Runcibae are kingdoms in Valenwood, since that's the closest province to the Summurset Isles and the isle of Artaeum. But, obviously, we couldn't get there in DF and won't be able to go there in MW either.
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I have always been facinated with the Isle of Artaeum. I would love to have my Morrowind character visit it, but i don't think that it will be possible.I might try to make a mod. You may not be able to make the actual island, but you could create a portal that might teleport you to the land or at least The Ceporah Tower which is on the island. Going to the Tower would be great, even if you couldn't leave it and go outside. Just as long as you could teleport back to Morrowind (Vvardenfell) when you were done. ------------------
~B "All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost..."
~J.R.R. Tolkien
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bump
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Bump indeed! My studies and research has had me so preoccupied recently that I have been careless about these discussions. The Psijic Endeavor. Why, were I not a Psijic myself, I may have had the time to discuss this subject more promptly.
Man becoming Godly? Perhaps a mere shadow of a God is more appropriate? And to "surpass" a God, well, now we are speaking of a grand gift. One really must be thoughtful of the "Gods" before one can even imagine gaining such a high power/command. Who and what are the Gods? Are they true beings of power? Are they merely Man with incredible ability? Are they figments of our frightened imaginations; something that comforts us in our time of loss and fright? IF, indeed, these "Gods" are beings that scripture and ink bring us to believe, then any Man could fathom the idea of being One.
This brings up many other interesting revelations. The Dwemer apparently had the Gods on the virge of fear with their new and amazing power (thus, the term, "technology" could be used). Did the Dwemer seek out such Godly power and attempt to achieve a sort of Nirvana? Not much different than the Psijic Endeavor one would imagine, BUT, were the Dwemer Psijics, or of the sort? Did they get close enough to frighten even the Gods, and find a heavy punishment awaiting? The Heart of Lorkhan was, by Legend, cast into Vvardenfell, creating Red Mountain. The Dwemer were native to this region, and had they uncovered this Heart, it seems likely that they would have the ability to gain something from it. Why else would Lorkhan and Dagoth Ur storm the Mountain? Surely, Lorkhan would dearly love to retrieve his Heart, but Dagoth Ur was also intent on the unknown power of the Heart. The Dwemer were merely an obstacle, no? Expendable. Dagoth Ur had no love for the Dwemer. Surely, the Endeavor is an idea to all mortals, but is is possible? One is led to believe that, had the Dwemer or Dagoth Ur succeeded in controlling this Heart, would it perhaps be The Key to opening the door? The Heart of a "God" in possession of a mortal. The idea is very exciting yet horrifying.
As a Psijic of the New Ways, the Dwemer appear to have been most successful in the Endeavor than any mortal. Their Endeavor is not the shared Endeavor of the Old Way. The New Way, so I speak with no REAL title, is the Way in which I have devoted my research to. I find this New Way to be most delightful a study. The Dwemer have taught me more about the "ideals" of the Endeavor than any Psijic could have in 1,000 years. So many questions, so little time. Finding answers appears to be the primary purpose of mortal existence.
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I don't think I have to explain.
Forum Cleanser!
It cleans, it disinfects, it's maniacal!
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Yes, I agree. Divayth Fyr posts should be maintained.
Raptormeat
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Ah, the Psijic Endeavor is one of my favorite topics.In reply to:
Divayth Fyr posts should be maintained.
Not only that, but I think Divayth Fyr needs to post more often! 
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...er, bump?
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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mayby the psijics where the protectors of the lokrhans heart and went to morowind to stop the dwarves to get godly powers,and the end psijics destroyed the dwarves.
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"I don't recall using teleportation and yet there i was.ALONE.NAKED"
My SShots
Thann's Mod's
Don's Forum
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In reply to:
mayby the psijics where the protectors of the lokrhans heart and went to morowind to stop the dwarves to get godly powers,and the end psijics destroyed the dwarves.
It is possible but highly unlikely.
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bump
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This topic is interesting. Also I reckon it's one of the longest running threads we have here. So is the Psijic Endeavor an endeavor by mortals to surpass the gods? It would seem that way.
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Yes, but how do they know of what a God is ? 
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Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi
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Yes, indeed, how do they know of what a God is? Who is "They"? Mortals?
I have left this thought for quite some time with my students and fellow scholars. I am mildly disappointed that this discussion dwindled since my last inquiry. Allow me to attempt to further reach into your curious minds.
Forgive me if this strays off topic for any amount of time, but I am sure it will be relevant to the subject in one form or another. The Psijic Endeavor. An original idea of the Psijic? Adopted by, or "thought" to be adopted by, the Dwemer. Did the Psijic of the Old Ways believe they could reach "Godhood"? Their disappearance baffles that idea. We may only speculate. The question that must be asked is, did the Psijic of the Old Ways believe in Gods in a spiritual manner? Did they merely recognise them as powerful beings, perhaps even foes? Once again, the answer is hidden with their absence to answer. The Dwemer. It is very possible that their ideas were quite similar to those of the Psijic of the Old Ways. We can easily ask ourselves if the Dwemer thought of the Gods in the same manner. Many writings speak of the Dwemer being Godless, giving little to no thought to your "They's" Gods. A similarity may very well be seen here. The Gods could have been angered by these Unbelievers, thus resulting in the mysterious disappearnace of the Dwemer and the Psijic of the Old Ways. Unbelievers would most assuredly have a difficult time gaining that trust of a God. The Gods could easily see this as a possible danger to their power over existing believers. Examples can, and most likely, would be set. I am not saying this is the reason for the disappearances. I am stating a simple "what if" for you to ponder. It is all quite relative. Or is it? Could the Psijic Endeavor and the Belief of the Dwemer be related?
I leave you with little more than more confusion to meditate on. The answers lay within the histories of a missing and mysterious peoples. Creating links between them may be the solution to understanding the Endeavor.
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My good, Divayth, it is good to see you again. I’m glad you are well. I see your dangerous research hasn’t gotten the best of you.
My research into the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor was dealt a stunning blow when Vehk informed us that the two have nothing in common. In reply to the question, what is the relationship between the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor, Vehk wrote, "Nothing but a namesake, I am sorry to say. Now we can end that mystery. The Endeavor is a method of achieving the Tower and then what to do after. The Order is not, and does not really care for the idea of the Endeavor at all, thinking it wrong-headed nearly from the start."
While the Dwemer's Endeavor is not the shared Endeavor the Psijic Order, I have chosen to continue my research into the mysterious Psijics. And in spite of Vehk's words that the Psijic Order has nothing to do the Psijic Endeavor, I believe that something can be learned by studying the histories of the Psijic Order, or the lack thereof. Perhaps, as you mentioned, something can be gleaned about the Dwemer by examining the Psijics.
You bring up some interesting comparisons between the Psijic Order and the Dwemer. I know there is more to be found if one is willing to look. I am one who has always been willing to unlock the mysteries of the Psijic Order, so I will once again pick up the research that has been lying, untouched, on my desk for months.
Edited by B (02/03/04 06:49 AM)
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Yes, indeed, how do they know of what a God is? Who is "They"? Mortals?
I supose so. People would allways venerate some kind of God wether he exists or not.
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Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi
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So many thoughts and ideas are dancing in my head. Written words are so imprecise...
The Psijic Order believes that the gods and daedra are merely spirits of our ancestors who have received great power and influence in the afterworld. Whether this is true or not, this fundamental belief may not sit well with those beings. If the Order is correct and knows the true task of the Mundus is to simply pass the test and leave the Arena only to compete again in another realm, then the gods certainly wouldn’t want this secret being passed on to the unworthy. Surely, not everyone is capable and glorious enough to continue on in the Journey.
If the Psijics have it all wrong, then they are basically challenging the divinity of the Creators and spreading lies. If enough people believe the Order, then the gods and daedra would lose worshipers and eventually their powerbase. However, in my opinion, that is quite unlikely to happen. The gods and daedra cannot truly believe that enough people would follow the Order’s beliefs. It is out of shear vanity that the gods and daedra would want everyone to follow them, unquestioningly.
So, what kind of relationship does the Order have with the gods and the daedra? Do these groups cooperate or are they at odds with each other? In my opinion, the Order is arrogant enough to believe that they can communicate and even negotiate with these beings. There are several reports of consultations with the daedra via the Dreaming Cavern. Sotha Sil is even reported to have brokered a deal with the princes. What power could the Order possibly hold to guarantee the princes cooperation? Better yet, what was promised when Sotha Sil met with the princes?
Similar things can be said of the Dwemer. They certainly seemed to "thumb their noses" at the gods. Surely, the gods and daedra loathed these mer. The Dwemer did something to evoke a little fear and panic in the gods. Were the gods and/or daedra responsible for their disappearance? I do not believe so, but then again, what do I know? In my opinion, the only ones responsible for the disappearance are the Dwemer themselves. They either did something right, or something went terribly wrong.
Then there is the disappearance of Artaeum. Sometime around 2E230, the isle of Artaeum literally vanished from the sea. When the isle returned 500 years later, Iachesis and the original council of Artaeum did not return. Could this be related to the Dwemer disappearance? I do not know. I would like to say no, but I have no proof. If we are to believe the stories in 2920, The Last Year of the First Era, Iachesis planned the absence, or at least knew it was coming. Even to this day, the isle it known to come and go as it pleases. Some even believe that the isle exists in different places at the same time.
Do the Psijics pose a threat to the gods and daedra? Did the gods feel threatened by the Dwemer? No matter what you believe, the Endeavor of the Psijics is not quite the same as the Endeavor of Dwemer.
So, my brothers and sisters, I leave you with these questions: What happened to Iachesis and the original council of Artaeum, what happened to the Dwarves, and, more importantly, are the two related?
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Fyr maybe be telling more than it seems like. There is something intriguing on the connection between the psijiic endeavor and the dwarve actions. I think it all relates to the idea of what a God is and how many ways there is to be a God.
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In Morrowind, for example, he (Lorkhan or Shezzar (sp?)) is a being related to the Psijiic Endeavor, a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created them.
So transcending is a process by which the Gods grant power to mortals, and regulate that power given to them.
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Nothing but a namesake, I am sorry to say. Now we can end that mystery. The Endeavor is a method of achieving the Tower and then what to do after. The Order is not, and does not really care for the idea of the Endeavor at all, thinking it wrong-headed nearly from the start
What is the wrong-headed belief of the old ways and how does it compares with the endeavor ?
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According to the book "Fragment: On Artaeum," "The earliest written record of Psijics is from the twentieth year of the first era." The Psijics then "literally vanished from the shores of Sumurset at the beginning of the second era at about the time of the founding of the Mages Guild of Tamriel." Five hundred years later, the island and the Psijics returned from the mists.
The Vvardenfell volcano erupted destroying the dwarven kingdom in Morrowind in year 668 of the First Era, according to Xanathar's site (I'm not sure what book this is in). So, actually the dwarves and the Psijics disappeared pretty close to the same time. But the Psijics came back.
Could it be that the psijiics where responsable for the disapearance of the dwarves ? Was Fyr somehow looking into the Dwemer Endeavor for the psijiics ?
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It seems to be the same idea though. Hmm also- if we are just working with mortals becoming Gods, isn't that how Sai, the god of luck and, uh Arkay the God of the cycle of Birth and Death became Gods. Now these guys became Gods because other Gods made them Gods, and You Know Who became a god through spells and an artifact.
The You Know Who become the God of Necromancers called Manimarco. However Manimarco like Sai have to answer to the prime Gods and their power is regulated by them. Im not shure of this but the ones that transcend into God-like status are also named Lesser Gods.
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The Psijics as an organized group are certainly suggested as being solely on Sumurset Isle. Of course, their off-shoot, the Mages Guild, is all over the Empire.
Perhaps the Psijic Endeavor is an off-shoot of the Mages Guild, going back to the original philosophy as it were.
Very well so the ones that pursuit the psijiic endeavor are neither the psijiics nor the mages guild but a new faction, perhaps connected to who or what is mentioned as lhorkan.
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As a Psijic of the New Ways, the Dwemer appear to have been most successful in the Endeavor than any mortal. Their Endeavor is not the shared Endeavor of the Old Way.
And neither the psijiic endeavor. Maybe it is a new form of transcending.
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Many writings speak of the Dwemer being Godless, giving little to no thought to your "They's" Gods. A similarity may very well be seen here. The Gods could have been angered by these Unbelievers, thus resulting in the mysterious disappearnace of the Dwemer and the Psijic of the Old Ways.
When someone transcends through the hand of the prime Gods one has to answer to them and their power is regulated by them. The Dwemer found a magical artifact they called earth of lhorkan. Seeing into the divine magics of this artifact they planed to created a brass body of a giant that would hold and be animated by this artifact and possibly be the channel to cast magic of immesurable power. Their knowledge of the workings of such golens was unique and they were the only ones who knew how to control it.
Much later one person would use a similar Golen to unify the empire under one command but that apparently didn't angered the Gods. The Golen was used as a war machine. The Dragon Break was the event (correct me if im wrong) when the Golem appeared in several places at the same time by twisting the laws of time. The Dragon Break is a great name for a simple but powerful displacement spell of no other use except for war. The Imperials sought to use the Golem as a war machine and that didnt angered the Gods. By coincidence or not the King of Worms used the arth of this golen (also the arth of Tiber Septim imperial battlemage) to negociate with the Gods and become Manimarco the god of the necromancers.
Many years before these events the Dwarves built the brass god, the golem. If their intention was to use it as a war machine and conquer all Tamriel they would have been successful and that would probably no anger the Gods. But they may have seem greater and more ambitious purposes for the brass God. To transcend one needs the divine magic of the prime Gods, but would you still require this servitude to the prime Gods to be a lesser god if you had one God at your command that could cast the divine magic neccessary to transcend ? If that was the case then the dwemer would not serve and be regulated by no Gods.
However until they would have control of it they would perhaps be exposed to political machinations of the factions interested in their knowledge. Maybe they didnt payed to much attention to traithors and spies or they were so much immersed in their works they didnt see throug the masks and false leads that were being given to them. Perhaps when they were almost so close to complete their works they were conquered by treachery and the psijiics thought to preserve their knowledge and arranged for them to be teleported to some other place. Or perhaps both the psijjics and dwemer were judge by the Gods and the psijiics where allowed to return but not the dwemer.
Better wait for the next game to know more.  All the info that could provide an answer to these questions has been diged to death on the lore books.
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Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi
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Master B,
For such an imprecise tool, you have managed to convey your thoughts quite well. The questions you ask are quite interesting, and if even a slight hint would go a long way to help solving both.
In an effort to refresh my understanding of the Dwemer, and what happened to them, I decided to visit our good friend Yagram. This in itself raised a few more questions. How come he has been infected with Corprus far longer than the other creatures of the Corprusarium, yet he hasn't changed like them? Perhaps the Dwemer physiology is different to the Dunmer. How come he remembers being in the 'Outer Relms' when the Dwemer vanished, yet can't remember other, just as important and easy to remember, things? Out of all the Dwemer, why would he be the only one that was in the 'Outer Relms' at the time? What exactly are the 'Outer Relms'? Oblivion?
This caused me to think: What if Kargenarc knew exactly how to strike the Heart to make his whole race God-Like? I wouldn't think either the Aedra or Daedra would approve. Now what if, just at the right moment, the Daedra (or Aedra) intervened and removed Kargenarc before he could complete the ritual. Since the process wasn't complete, the Heart removed the life of the Dwemer instead of giving it. Kargenarc, now in the Outer Relms, finds his way back to Tamriel and discovers that the Dwemer are no longer. Now, either because of the trauma of realising what he had done he has suppressed his memories of the events (or the Daedra stole his memory, or he's lying), he believes he is now Yagram!
Indeed, the last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him...
Or my studies of the Dwemer have eroded my sanity... 
-Striker
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Well met once again Lord Fyr. *nods respectfully to the sage*
@B
That is an excellent summary, B.
I am curious, though, where you have said "There are several reports of consultations with the daedra via the Dreaming Cavern." Do you know of accounts of this Cavern's use other than the instance in '2920'?
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Quite a theory Striker, even Bagarn can fix the broken Wraithguard from Vivec (if we take another route to finish the game). But then again this is all speculation...
Now another questions... What is this "Outer Realms" that Yagurm Bagarn talked about? Another spiritual realm? Another time-space? Is this the realm where Iachesis and the rest of Psijic left? I assume this realm has no connection to the Aedra or Daedra. And why Bagarn need to go there in the first place?
...so many questions...
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
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What exactly are the 'Outer Relms'? Oblivion?
Comments posted by one Lord Chimere Direnni;
"You ask of Dregas Volar? A worthy tale, that. It was not he who assisted in my escape from Caercilly. Far from it; it was he who came upon the last Daedric Crescent Blade, that is all. In Elinhir, I believe. Fearing the wrath of his master, he came to me, as the Daedra were wont to do in those days. I crafted a sanctuary for him.
Yagrum Bagarn was with me then, he aided me. It is a place outside the Grey Maybe not ruled by Oblivion, Aetherius, Masser, Secunda, Lorkhan or Padhomaia.
The Dwemer called them 'Outer Realms', and I confess that I found them to be a most worthy concept of scholarly pursuit."
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Ah, it's explained. So he took Chimere Direnni guise, I see.
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i in no way claim to be well informed on matters of lore. i have read all the books but my lack of retention sort of negates that claim. so please forgive my clumsiness but feel free to rip it pieces.
to your post zingbat, i had a very curious idea. the dwemer were going to, in a fashion resurrect lorkhan or his powers in the akhulakan construct? no wonder the gods became nervous. given that lorkhan is mr. chaos, or at least a child of such, it is very unlikely, that anything with lorkhans spirit attached to it would be uncontrolable. the dwemer may not have thought this a problem as they seem to have been arrogant. touting the gods implies a degree of arrogance. i am sure they thought themselves quite capable of handling the nature of lorkhan through their sciences or studies. which is sort of oxymoronic if you think about it. using logic and science to control chaos. the nature of chaos precludes this possibility if i am not mistaken.
anyhow, the thing that came to mind was that the gods could care less about the dwemer themselves yet were horrified by the idea of anypart of lorkhan being revived. this was the real threat. i think the gods knew better, that akhulakan would be an epic disaster if it came to completion. it could turn out to be very much like the story of the nevarine. betrayel, death, ressurection, revenge or justice depending on how you look at it. and imagine if the form of justice lorkhan/akhulakan dished out was wisdom? there is no way to beat that except through extinction. you have some reanimated god that is terribly powerful giong around and letting people know that anyone with the right qualifications can become a god. that in my opinion would be more destructive to the gods than if he were to try and destroy them outright. well i think i have said enough. great topic by the way.
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Ah, it's explained.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't buy that this is the only possible explanation of those events. Who is Lord Chimere Direnni anyway?
Edit: I notice Lord Fyr that you have challenged the identity of this Chimere Direnni, perhaps you know who he truly is?
If you would be so kind, does he speak the truth in any form about these Outer Realms and Yagrum Bagarn?
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Edited by Nigedo (02/06/04 03:11 AM)
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Now that's only Divayth Fyr can answer, I am sure also that he knows Master Chimere Direnni. So Yagurm Bagarn was with Chimere. Right, then Bagarn's mission was to rescue him, I think, or Bagarn was trapped in the Chimere's realm. However, mission accomplished, both Bagarn and Chimere were able to return to Tamriel, and... Bagarn can not find anymore his race.
But still, I have some questions in mind. Other Realms should not just really the pocket plane that hold Caercilly island. There must be others. Does one of these realms also hold Artaeum? If we can assume the planes are like bubbles floating in the air, then it's possible that these bubbles intersect each other in some point of time, and on that time Artaeum shows up on Nirn.
Again, this is just a speculation of my simple mind, and no record of these "bubbles" on Cosmology. Beside Cosmology doesn't explain Outer Realms.
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Edited by Xanathar (02/06/04 03:40 AM)
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My friends,
I am glad to see that you have rejoined the Quest for Understanding, although, many of you may never have left. I cannot stay long, but I will return in a few days. All of you have made some excellent points, and I wish to comment when I get back. But, quickly, before I leave...
Quote:
I am curious, though, where you have said "There are several reports of consultations with the daedra via the Dreaming Cavern." Do you know of accounts of this Cavern's use other than the instance in '2920'?
I may have been a little quick to speak the word "several." Another reference to the Dreaming Cave(rn) was made in a letter from Gosleigh to Xal. While it isn't completely reliable, I believe it has some merit:
...I've instructed my assistant Jolfer to take care of anything I receive over the next couple of days or weeks. I can't go into the details, but suffice it to say, I will be in the Dreaming Cave. Yes. And to your next question, no, there is no one but me who can go on this. Believe me, Direnni, who is a fool (which is made plainer every day) would take my place if he could...
...Now I must go. They must tattoo me for my trip. I'm sure I'll look like a perfect ass. The daedra should be very amused.
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Okay, so I was able to sneak back for a few minutes...
Ah, Striker, your words are very intriguing and convincing. Too bad we cannot learn more from Yagrum. Perhaps one day his memory will return.
Xan, I am fascinated by your "bubble theory." It would make sense for the Outer Realms to be made up of pockets or bubbles. If true, it would seem plausible that Artaeum could exist in a so-called bubble.
Nigedo, as always, you ask pertinent questions and bring valuable knowledge. I wish we had more to go on.
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Let's further examine the beliefs of the Psijic Order:
When the Unstoppable Force (Padomay) collided with the Immovable Object (Anu), something happened. As far as I can tell, that "something" was given the name PSJJJJ. The Psijic Order glorifies PSJJJJ. Whether the Order believes that PSJJJJ is an actual entity or merely a Force of Change, is unclear to me. What I do know is that the Order works with Change:
"In Mundus, conflict and disparity are what bring change, and change is the most sacred of the Eleven Forces. Change is the force without focus or origin. It is the duty of the disciplined Psijic [“Enlightened One”] to dilute change where it brings greed, gluttony, sloth, ignorance, prejudice, cruelty... [here Taheritae lists the rest of the 111 Prodigalities], and to encourage change where it brings excellence, beauty, happiness, and enlightenment."
Let's imagine for a minute that the Order's beliefs about the gods are true and they have become great through some long forgotten process. During the time of the original Acharyai, several people achieved great power upon dying. Over time, these "gods" walked Nirn sharing stories. Eventually, those stories became gospel, and just like the Tribunal tried to do, the stories became embellished.
"Of course these beings were always gods!" they would say. "Some even died to create the Mundus."
The only difference between what the Tribunal tried to do and what the gods achieved, is that the inhabitants of Nirn forgot the Truth. That is, except the Order. They know what really occurred because the knowledge is passed on through the Order. They are The Guardians Of The Secret That Has Been Forgotten... Well, now I'm starting to sound like the novel the Da Vinci Code...You get the idea, though.
Perhaps the aforementioned idea was a little farfetched. I certainly do not profess to know the Truth. Perhaps the Psijic Order does? And perhaps the Dwemer were onto something, too, but I'll leave that for someone else to discuss.
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Quote:
Quote:
Ah, it's explained.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't buy that this is the only possible explanation of those events. Who is Lord Chimere Direnni anyway?
Edit: I notice Lord Fyr that you have challenged the identity of this Chimere Direnni, perhaps you know who he truly is?
If you would be so kind, does he speak the truth in any form about these Outer Realms and Yagrum Bagarn?
I do indeed challenge the identity of Master Chimere. This folly stageplay would have him believing that, he could possibly be me? Or that he has escaped his Isle of Desolation, Caecilly Island? The words spoken do not sound like the Chimere I once met. If by some miracle, Master Chimere has found passage from his damnation in the Outer Realm, the demise of his kin and eternal life have driven him mad.
I have not seen Master Chimere since Lord Mehrunes Dagon cast him down with curse. I have had audience with Master Chimere, during which he was making preparation to banish Lord Dagon. A knowlegable man whom was known to show such braveries to confront deadly foes. It is true, I am in posession of Master Chimere's valued artifacts, but that does not name me Master Chimere Graegyn of the Direnni clan, in any case, nor him me. An old, crippled man, doomed to remain so for eternity, Master Chimere was dealt a horrid punishment for his betrayals and dealings with a Daedric Lord.
The claim pertaining to Master Yagrum Bagarn of great interest to me. This is unknown to me, but perhaps by gaining his audience, Master Yagrum Bagarn will recall this. I know it is quite humorous to consider this fact, considering the time of events, but I shall humor myself, and soon my fellow colleagues and students. I do hate to label anyone an imposter, especially when I have more important tasks at hand.
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I recently have had some astounding insights as to the nature of the Dwemer, and to the Psijic. It would seem that we have been looking at the Dwemer, thier plans, the Psijic, the Aedra, and the Daedra completely backwards.
This will be quite a lengthy post, I shall try to break it up into two sections, one outlining my assumptions, the other tying it all together..
The first thing that is necessary to know is what I call the Paradox of the Aedra and Daedra.
Typically, we associate the Aedra with stasis, unchanging. They are also the beings who can create. Yet, they can be killed in what amounts to be a permanent fashion. (Many sources, especially creation myths)
Death is a most permanent change. Creation is also a very strong change. While representing stasis, the Aedra are subject to the most profound changes.
The Daedra, on the other hand, represent change. They cannot create, but they can destroy. But they themselves cannot be killed, only banished for a while.
Thus, while the Daedra can, and often do, change themselves, they are immune to change from external sources. They represent change, yet are not subject to it except by thier own will.
The Aedra, being somewhat mortal and subject to death, cannot really be static. The Daedra, being unchangeable, are not truly dynamic. This is the Paradox of which I spoke.
Now, on to the Psijics.
While not much is concretely known about the Psijics, there is much accepted as fact. A bit more might be considered plausible speculation.
The term I see used about the Psijics is "transcendence". They venerate the essence of Padomay (from whence the Daedra sprang) and are associated with the CHIM; described as protean in its representation. The idea here is change. But, it is directed change with the idea of becoming more, or surpassing.
(This will seem out of place here, but I need you to remember it. In order to transcend something, you must first be its equal. Only then can you surpass it.
This becomes important, as you shall see.)
Thier beliefs are summed up nicely in B's post ahead of me. To note, they believe, (it is said) that man and mer can become gods, or at least godlike.
Now, on to the Dwemer.
Most scholars agree that the Dwemer seemed "godless" often irreverent about the deities, specifically the Daedra. Similarly, many think that the Dwemer met thier end due to thier disrespect of the Daedra.
But not many theories exist as to why the Dwemer has such a casual, even irrelevant attitude towards the Daedra (specifically). I believe that the key here is thier constructs, thier Amunucli.
We are all familiar with thier constructs. These constructs still operate after thousands of years, which by any standards is quite a feat. Yet most work I have seen delves into how they operate (still a mystery), not what they represent.
To become a God, you must do as Gods do. The Dwemer had created life!
Certainly, it was life made out of metal and gears, rather than flesh and bones, yet it is life nonetheless. It is life that continues to live on with a greater lifespan then any other mortal. And the knowledge was so easy for them, so intimical, that it is said (perhaps metaphorically, perhaps not) that a Dwemer of 8 could create a golem. Even if you choose to disregard that phrase, the amount of working creations speaks volumes of thier mastery of creation. This ability, this knowledge seems to have become a part of them.
With the secret of creating life, the Dwemer (at least to them) had become on par with the Aedra. Even more so, the creations were very much like the Aedra, unchanging through the years. Thus were the Daedra threatened. Thus why the Dwemer had no more use for them.
The Dwemer had transcended.
Perhaps Lord Fyr could tell us the reason he, a Psijic, created life himself? Perhaps more importantly, he would tell us how difficult or easy it was.
Part 2 forthcoming in a few moments.
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Founder and sole member of the "Malleable Modding" school of thought.
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Continuing on...
My theory thus far has centered around the transcendence of the Dwemer by having created life. Not only that, but the knowledge of creation was not limited to a few individuals. Seemingly all, or at least a good percentage, of the Dwemer knew how to do so.
I would like to, pardon the pun, shift gears here a moment. I believe that a few highly knowledgable individuals knew of the meaning and implications of the Dwemeri creations. Three individuals in particular have shown similar lines of work. 2 of them are confirmed to be Psijics. I will not mention here other estemmed individuals, such as Master Baladas, who seem to have glimpsed these truths, but are not as advanced in thier perceptions of the meanings.
The first individual is Lord Fyr. He not only created his daughter/wives (and I must complement you on them, Milord), but he also has, as a rather permanent guest, the (presumably) Last Dwemer. And, as he will unabashedly admit, Lord Fyr is a Psijic.
(And if you will forgive me, Lord Fyr, I would suggest to you that while your creations are marvelous for what they are, they will not lead you to what you seek. Fundamentally, they are not new life, but a changing of existing life. Of course, that path might be exactly what you seek. If so forgive these words)
The next individual is Manimarco, the self-proclaimed "King of Worms". All evidence supports the fact that Manimarco was an accomplished, if not the greatest, Necromancer. And what is Necromancy? At its lowest form, it is connecting a lifeless body with its previously lost life. At its finest, it is making life. The creations of truely skilled Necromancers can last for ages, similar to the constructs of the Dwemer. However, I have found that while it can tap into the Divinity of Creation, in most cases it simply is a re-working of extand forces.
However, History records that at least one Necromancer achieved godhood through this method. Thus it is unfair to rule it out completely.
The third individual is none other than Sotha Sil himself. While not specifically said to be a Psijic, it is recorded that Sotha Sil spent time with the Psijics, and taught thier pupils. I think it is fairly certain that they would not allow this if he was not either one of them, or at least so sympathetic to thier ideals, one would be hard pressed to say he was not one of the Order.
But of the myriad things written and spoken of Sotha Sil, it is true that he spent much of his existance studying, and re-creating the Dwemer constructs. From clockwork dreughs, to other creations, he learned the secrets of the Dwemer.
Not only that, but I feel he expanded on them. The creations nearest him, which we can presume are his latest ones, look more...lifelike. Tt would appear that they may actually be a blending of living creatures and Dwemeri "technology". If so, I cannot tell if Sotha Sil succeded wildly, or failed miserably in his endeavors.
Sotha Sil and the Dwemer both share a nagging question at this point. Sotha Sil had become a god. The Dwemer, I argue, had similarly transcended into gods of a sort.
Why then did both feel the need to create more ? Sotha Sil kept refining his creations, arguably to incorpration living creatures.
Similarly, the Dwemer created Numidium. It is most commonly believed that the Dwemer created Numidium because they wanted to build a god. On a certain level, that is true. But in an irony that I feel the Dwemer would find delightful, we have all misinterpreted this.
Even Dagoth Ur, another god, was working on creating Akulakhan, the "Second Numidium."
Why would two gods, and a race of new gods all feel the need to build creations, or other gods?
Why?
Why?
To become as a god, you must do as gods do.
The ability to create transcended them to become like the Aedra. Scions of Stasis, yet vulnerable to Change. The Paradox of the Aedra and Daedra made itself known. While like the Aedra, they could create, but they could die. And yet, in this form they could be changed, though they could not change themselves.
They sought to become like the Daedra, truley immortal, but more importantly, able to change themselves.
They needed to Transcend. But they needed a god to change them. They needed a potent being who could summon the power to change them, which they were unable to do themselves.
Sotha Sil, Dagoth Ur, and the Dwemer all wanted this. Lorkhan was the trickster, the embodyment of change.
I give you more things to think about and digest on your own. I have not yet filled in all the gaps, but I can lead you to more questions.
Was the Heart designed to power Numidium, or was Numidium designed to feed the heart? The definition of "power" can mean many things.
Why do many depictions of the Dwemer portray them connected to thier creations? Why was Sotha Sil reputedly found in a similar state?
Why are the "ghosts" of the Dwemer nearly always machinists?
Why does Corprus leave one immortal, yet changed?
How would Nirn be effected by beings that could switch from stasis to change?
What is the Psijic method of Transcendence?
Why does Azura smile at all this?
These things are all connected.
I write this as Khir Eyes-of-Lightning, descendant of the Wamasus, Former guardian of Black Marsh.
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Founder and sole member of the "Malleable Modding" school of thought.
I take my jokes very seriously. Humor is no laughing matter.
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God, it all goes back to Lorkhan, doesn’t it? The Mundus really is a test…
The well-known passage from ‘The Monomyth’ in regards to Lorkhan’s plan to create the mortal plane:
Humans, with the exception of the Redguards, see this act as a divine mercy, an enlightenment whereby lesser creatures can reach immortality.
It seems more and more that the momentum of the Elder Scrolls is to show godhood to the world of Nirn, en masse – that the ultimate purpose of mortal existence on Nirn is to transcend the mortal existence of Nirn - that this is all by design. The stories of each hero of the Third Era have headed increasingly in such a direction, the same players hanging at the periphery all the while. But to what end? What waits at the end of the Third Era, beyond the impending Fall of the Empire that so many seem so sure of?
The hands and minds of the Psijics are at the heart of all these stories, certainly. But who else? The Tribunal, certainly - but unless Vivec makes a potentially post-mortem appearance in Summerset Isle (doubtful), they've been removed from the board.
Extraordinary post, Harlequin. Well done.
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-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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High praise from you, LDons. Especially because Illuminated Order fits in so well with my theory, and in fact, led me to some of my thinking.
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Founder and sole member of the "Malleable Modding" school of thought.
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But the question still remains. What is a God ? How can mortals percieve a God ? The key may be in the power to create. The last stage that every magicien would dream of: the power to shape worlds with just of tought of ones mind. Maybe this is what magic is for. But there are only two forms of magic. The magic used by the healers comes from the divinity they venerate. The magic that comes from the Mages Guild teachings needs the use of magic scrolls written on a arcane and ancient language. The mages of chaos can only shape it. When they focus on a spell scroll the letters twist until their true meening is revealed and then they are granted a small measure of godwood to alter the laws of nature. A mage usually possesses a spell-book but he cannot fill spells with it from his own will, he can only copy spells from an already existing scroll. This is not creation but simple change.
For the first time in my life, i looked into an english net dictionary and here is what it says about being a god:
Quote:
God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
3. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
4. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
5. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
6. A very handsome man.
7. A powerful ruler or despot.
If a god was just a very handsome man then anyone like me would be a god Ok just ignore this part.
Some words in the definition link immediatly with the lore of the elderscrolls. These are omnipotent, omiscient, the ruler, to control some part of nature or reality.
In other words a good is omniscient because he is reality and so a god knows his own toughts and in knowning his own toughts he knows every part of reality just by thinking. Mm i could fill pages with this stuff but i think you guys got my point already.
A good is one of the laws of nature.
A good is a plane.
However a god is still a living being. Not alive like one of the mortals of Tamriel but alive in a more exotic and incompreensible way. When measured against the other gods and not in years but as a timeless measure. And certainly not the only one, and to the other gods he must still answer. Man im feeling like im writing a Bible here.
Im only guessing but i belive the final step of any powerful magicien leads him necessarily into transcending and become himself and his toughts a plane in the skies. Maybe it is trough the use of necromancy or trought the use of the tonal magics discovered by the dwemer that are capable of animating life were there is none, magic is what makes it possible.
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Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi
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I think you are thinking to much about the "gods". There are the Aedra and the Daedra, we know what each of these are.
Aedra: Close to perfect, stasis, good, sort of mortal
Daedra: Mostly evil, changing, immortal
We now know the definition of both types of god. Why do you insist on defining god in the general form?
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"Once all the walls are torn down, and the barriers broken, who will you be? Where will you stand? Will you find yourself empty, having only defined yourself through others? Or will you be your own person, and stand tall in your own magnificence? That, my friends, is the difference between heaven and hell; it is known as 'identity'." - Anonymous
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Ah, Lord Fyr, thank you for dispelliing that confusion. I admit I had hoped that there may have been some truth in those words; that notion of the Outer Realms was momentarily intoxicating.
Yet I still wonder, is this Outer Realm that Master Bagarn has experienced a place outside of our understanding of the cosmos, that which Vehk has defined by the Wheel? Or is it more simply a 'place' between Oblivion and Aetherius? Perhaps you might ask him, if your studies permit further time for such distractions.
For 'Chimere' Direnni, I fear it is as you say, to speak with that unfortunate mer we must navigate a route to Caecilly. Such a perilous journey would be more suited to wizards and researchers in the fashion of Morian Zenas than simple scholars.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Perhaps there is more even to the evolution of mortals than we think.
Sometime back I was struck by a sudden thought. If Anu was changed, then Anu is no more. Perfection, once changed, is destroyed. All that remains are the shattered parts of Anu, the et'Ada and their creations.
The Daedra may seem to change, but they remain, in essence, the same being. Mehrunes Dagon will always be a spirit of destruction, and Boethiah one of treachery. Every member of the et'Ada has too much Stasis within them. They cannot evolve to remove their imperfections.
So Lorkhan created Mundus. The Aedra drained their Stasis into the world, and put their Change into the beings upon it. The mer and men can change and become more or less than they were. They have not enough Stasis to remain the same, and thus are always in a state of Change. Their essence is trapped in the network of Lorkhan's Heart, and is constantly being purified or defiled by those it is sent to.
In the end, the ultimate goal is not of trascendence, but of a true Creation. Mundus is decaying and approaching what may be its end. When the links are severed, the essence of those from Mundus will return to where they came from. By the trial that has changed them, they will have become perfect, and will enter into a new Stasis. The remaining Change will degenerate once more into a force, that will one day collide with the new Stasis. Anu and Padomay are reborn to live out the same collision. The universe is made eternal by the presence of mortals and their striving for something greater.
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Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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What is perfect harmony--( stasis )-----to change it---( destrution of a god/power )----result--the powers are let free----chaotic powers dancing--- universe is born again--the key to start/break statis was the trickster. so if the dwemers where tampering with the heart-- they where a menace to this universe. and so bye dwemers. as i see it the gods have no choise but to dance. then what is the trickster-?
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What is perfect harmony--( stasis )-----to change it---( destrution of a god/power )----result--the powers are let free----chaotic powers dancing--- universe is born again--the key to start/break statis was the trickster. so if the dwemers where tampering with the heart-- they where a menace to this universe. and so bye dwemers.
Yes, you are reaching the same assumptions I did. It follows that :
1) The Dwemer were destroyed by the Daedra (many have put this theory forward).
2) The Dwemer destroyed themselves, by basically turning into something that could not exist.
3) The Dwemer actually transcended, but into something unrecognizable. Since they became a paradox, they could not be wedged into any classification, and thus, not really percieved. IMHO, this is what Vivec speaks of when he mentions he does not percieve them. He simply has no frame of reference to do so. A man born blind has no frame of reference to understand colors. Its life, Jim, but not as we know it.
zingbat:
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But the question still remains. What is a God ? How can mortals percieve a God ?
This is actually answered in a few texts. From the Elder Scrolls Cosmology:
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What are planets?
The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
Now, this has some special ramifications. The Dwemer has a working Orrey, as well as many telescopes. The Dwemer could see the gods. Certainly, the planets were visable to others, but the Dwemer could percieve them far better than anyone else. Not only that, but they studied them enough to predict thier movements, as evidenced by the Orrey.
When something becomes predictable, it can no longer be mysterious. When it is understandable, it can no longer be sacred. The Dwemer had been known for making the sacred profane, and vice versa. With prediction comes power.
This seems to have ties in with the ethics of science in our world. Science kills the sacred. Reference Copernicus, Newton, etc. Now substitute the Dwemer. Of course they were heretics.
TSBasilisk:
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The Daedra may seem to change, but they remain, in essence, the same being. Mehrunes Dagon will always be a spirit of destruction, and Boethiah one of treachery. Every member of the et'Ada has too much Stasis within them. They cannot evolve to remove their imperfections.
So Lorkhan created Mundus. The Aedra drained their Stasis into the world, and put their Change into the beings upon it. The mer and men can change and become more or less than they were. They have not enough Stasis to remain the same, and thus are always in a state of Change. Their essence is trapped in the network of Lorkhan's Heart, and is constantly being purified or defiled by those it is sent to.
In the end, the ultimate goal is not of trascendence, but of a true Creation.
Yes, you see what I am saying. Its hinted at in many sources that Mundus might have been a test-run of sorts, or that Lorkhan made sure his creation would be flawed.
The question now forming in my mind is weather the goal is really a transcendance as we think of it, or a de-evolution back into more primal forms. An un-learning, if you will. This might very well have the same effect, waking the men and mer into seeing that they have always been what they sought to become.
Magnus fled Mundus, but left parts of himself here. Perhaps all men and mer are already divine, but simply cannot accept that possibility? This may be the ultimate trick of Doom Drum.
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The question now forming in my mind is weather the goal is really a transcendance as we think of it, or a de-evolution back into more primal forms. An un-learning, if you will. This might very well have the same effect, waking the men and mer into seeing that they have always been what they sought to become.
Just to bring this back into the light, in the context of this discussion, here is a verse or two from Vehk;
"The arbitrary and the motivated in regarding one's divine ancestors: ignoring a manifest concern for belief in them as us, instead we concern ourselves with intensity and its relationship with action, valorizing 'little narratives' and proliferation of narratives in our native cultures to the point that there is no perch from extraneous content.
Pure subjectivity is no longer possible; instead it becomes akin to sensory deprivation, yet without the fear, for we sense things that remind us of the dawn: the sacrifice into the stabilizing bones, new-built towers with broken intentions, and first metals gone blue from exposure to the long sun.
The quest toward the ur-you for certainty and foundations is not innocent.
However, it is an honest vindication for truth and superhuman ideals, which means it should be regarded as such by our own sense of fault: we made this, we dreamed this, we made it viable by voting with our seductions, we will live again to show our genuine applause."
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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I tried to read all your theories but I am only interested in one thing:
What is the secret of The Egg ofTime and the Divine Metafizics?
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I tried to read all your theories but I am only interested in one thing:
What is the secret of The Egg ofTime and the Divine Metafizics?
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TSBasilisk
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1.) Try not to double-post.
2.) Nobody knows the exact contents; there's still a translation project in progress. What is known can be heard from Yagrum Bagarn and Baladas by asking for help translating if you have the Hanging Gardens.
3.) You're off-topic.
4.) Create a new thread or do a Search.
5.) When Vehk wasn't trying to rewrite history, he did have some very good things to say, didn't he? Then again, a semi-divine poet would start to understand reality a bit more than seems ordinary...
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Edited by TSBasilisk (02/07/04 06:36 PM)
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zingbat
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Its not just that simple. There are many versions and beliefs in the gods. The Aedra and Daedra are beliefs presented in some books of dubious origins mainly related to schoolar workings from the psijjics or the mages guild and some, very important, without any identification, maybe from still unknown factions.
The imperials believe in the Aedra and reject the Daedra. Other religons believe in a unique god, the all-father. A good measure of different beliefs sustein the idea of a duality of forces. The world of the Elderscrolls as an extra element of complexity and the truth cannot be just taken from one book. You have to link things together and try to build your own truth.
Besides there are the teachings of Vivec that picture the interrelations of the Gods and the planes (which like someone already said they are the same thing) as images of a weel and of a tower. What were Vivec dealings with the psijjic endeavor is something i would like to know.
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I ended my last post with a Q.--- what is or are the nature of the trickster.--- to both outlooks the religious and scientific people,( dwemers )--- the unexplainabel is either the gods or a physiacal law of nature.--- so my bet is that the trickster is coincidence.--- to try and analysing the dwemer ways,--- you can not use a religious/lore approach,--- i think a cold scientific way is the right approach.-- anyway when the supreme and dignified scholars of the scrolls are in the dark corner.--- use the cold anti religious light--- to help in finding a way to unlock some of the dwemer mystery,-- i am only a humbel novice of the forum,-- but true to my nordic nature i have a cold anti religious mind,---if the gods will help me ok-- if not to hell with them.
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TSBasilisk
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Nords...anti-religious? What about their panethon?
The nature of the Trickster, Lorkhan, is largely of Change. His change is one of creation and perfection, rather than one of destruction. Change links back to the original force, Padomay, whose essence was of Change in its purest form, both destructive and creative. From its touching upon perfection, it both created the et'Ada and destroyed Anu.
The Dwemer may have used coldly scientific means to achieve an end, but the end was not scientific, but metaphysical. The Dwemer sought to elevate themselves above the mortal world through a divine power. The means used were scientific, but the end result was not. Thus, they cannot be analyzed in a solely scientific fashion, because the scientific does not account for everything.
And why are you typing like that? 
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sorry TB what words can´t you read, aQ what do pantehon mean? never read seen or head that word.
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zingbat
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Nords are religious all right. Their pantheon, or in other words the group of divinities they venerate, is based on the all-father and the greedy man. Their religious beliefs are similar to the vikings, were the all-father is Odin and the greedy man would probably be Lock, the one that defies the Gods. There is no distinction between Aedra and Daedra in Nordic religion for what i know from Solestein.
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ooh yes the nords in the game, but i am a nord/ northerner to by birth, that littel nords mind is a none religious one. more a cold scientific one. ooh are we rollplaying in the forum also. 
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It is nice to be back. I have returned to find many wonderful ideas and theories. I find all of them quite fascinating.
While I was away, I had some time to think about some of the differences between the Psijics and the Dwemer. Some of my thoughts have formed into statements; others are still in the form of questions.
First, is the fact that the two Endeavors are different. It is my opinion that the Psijics do not wish to become gods. Certainly, they do counsel great men and women on matters of importance and perhaps even lead them to becoming great in the afterworld, but I think it is more along the lines of being “plugged-in” to some universal consciousness, perhaps to become omniscient. The Dwemer wished to construct their own “god,” someone to help them to transcend the Mundus. But was the Dwemer’s ultimate goal the same as the Psijics? I cannot say.
Next, as we know, the Dwemer hoped to use Lorkhan’s Heart as a power source for their Endeavor. They researched and experimented with the Tools and even the Heart itself. Ultimately, their plans involved tapping the Heart. The Psijics are a different matter. They believe in a more mystical approach. Perhaps the Order taps into some hidden force that exists on Nirn itself. I am unsure. What is the power source of the Psijic’s and their Old Ways?
Finally, as I alluded to above, we have the battle of philosophies: Magic vs. Technology. In my opinion the Psijics glorify a more magical/mystical approach to their beliefs and Endeavors, where as, the Dwemer rely heavily on technology for theirs. I’m not saying that the Psijics don’t use technology, nor am I saying that the Dwemer completely shun magic--surely, there's some magic to using a god's Heart as a power source. I am merely saying that the two groups rely on different strategies for their Endeavors. The Dwemer are legendary technicians, and the Psijics are legendary magicians. So basically, one could say that the Dwemer are to technology as the Psijics are to Magic. Sorry, I've become a bit too repetitive. How many different ways can I say it?
Edited by B (02/09/04 06:43 AM)
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The fact remains: The Psijiic Oder still exists within the Mundus. The Dwemer, apparently, do not.
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